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	<title>Comments on: Can your learners wing it?</title>
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	<description>Let&#039;s save the world from boring elearning</description>
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		<title>By: sophie</title>
		<link>http://blog.cathy-moore.com/2008/07/can-your-learners-wing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-5973</link>
		<dc:creator>sophie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 00:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cathy-moore.com/?p=231#comment-5973</guid>
		<description>a big part of &#039;teaching&#039; is facilitating others to get them to be independent learners, and in instances where you tell them what to do, you create a dependency in learning when they are later exposed to more constructivist environments, students can react with &quot;What am I supposed to do now?&quot; or &quot;he/she does not teach us anything! We have to do all the work ourselves.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a big part of &#8216;teaching&#8217; is facilitating others to get them to be independent learners, and in instances where you tell them what to do, you create a dependency in learning when they are later exposed to more constructivist environments, students can react with &#8220;What am I supposed to do now?&#8221; or &#8220;he/she does not teach us anything! We have to do all the work ourselves.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Dave&#8217;s Whiteboard &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Show and go, or, blink and think</title>
		<link>http://blog.cathy-moore.com/2008/07/can-your-learners-wing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-5101</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave&#8217;s Whiteboard &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Show and go, or, blink and think</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 10:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cathy-moore.com/?p=231#comment-5101</guid>
		<description>[...] New Hampshire has places worth hiking, Cathy Moore has ideas worth hearing. A recent example asks, &#8220;Can your learners wing it?&#8221; What she&#8217;s asking is whether the training you develop allows people to think for themselves [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] New Hampshire has places worth hiking, Cathy Moore has ideas worth hearing. A recent example asks, &#8220;Can your learners wing it?&#8221; What she&#8217;s asking is whether the training you develop allows people to think for themselves [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Ferguson</title>
		<link>http://blog.cathy-moore.com/2008/07/can-your-learners-wing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-5078</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Ferguson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:14:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cathy-moore.com/?p=231#comment-5078</guid>
		<description>I think &quot;trivial competence&quot; is an excellent distinction.  I used to talk about &quot;chimpanzee programming,&quot; a &quot;skill&quot; of my own.  I&#039;d copy a chunk of job control language that I knew would accomplish X, and modify it so it&#039;d do Y (a variation on X).  Other than three arguments I knew how to change, I had no idea whatsoever what the rest of the code did.

At the same time, reinforcing your larger point, the first few times I did this and my modified code ran correctly, I could &lt;i&gt;feel&lt;/i&gt; my synapses sit up and take notice.  Hey, that really &lt;i&gt;will&lt;/i&gt; produce this week&#039;s report, not last week&#039;s.

It&#039;s how the loops gets closed -- or, better, how the cycle completes one revolution -- in the approach you recommend.  Rather than show and tell, it&#039;s &lt;i&gt;go and show.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think &#8220;trivial competence&#8221; is an excellent distinction.  I used to talk about &#8220;chimpanzee programming,&#8221; a &#8220;skill&#8221; of my own.  I&#8217;d copy a chunk of job control language that I knew would accomplish X, and modify it so it&#8217;d do Y (a variation on X).  Other than three arguments I knew how to change, I had no idea whatsoever what the rest of the code did.</p>
<p>At the same time, reinforcing your larger point, the first few times I did this and my modified code ran correctly, I could <i>feel</i> my synapses sit up and take notice.  Hey, that really <i>will</i> produce this week&#8217;s report, not last week&#8217;s.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s how the loops gets closed &#8212; or, better, how the cycle completes one revolution &#8212; in the approach you recommend.  Rather than show and tell, it&#8217;s <i>go and show.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Paul Jinks</title>
		<link>http://blog.cathy-moore.com/2008/07/can-your-learners-wing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-4901</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Jinks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 10:06:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cathy-moore.com/?p=231#comment-4901</guid>
		<description>I think that, in terms of classroom learning, the &#039;information dump&#039; (love that phrase) approach has probably mostly been abandoned because teachers and trainers know it doesn&#039;t work and if it rewards learners very little, it rewards teachers even less.  

Online, I there is a lot of pressure to provide cheap reusable training. This leads to a form of  mechanical interactivity from multiple choice quizzes, drag and drop etc which is simple to do and to grade. While these can be written to test students&#039; ability to apply, evaluate and synthesize ideas rather than just regurgitate them, they tend to lead to fairly simplistic dead ends which might well not make sense to learners.

The other extreme is the online learning community, where reflexive learning is supported by co-learners or a tutor or probably from both. The learning in this situation is through discussion and participation if not collaboration. This requires skilled, committed facilitators, which will make the course less &#039;re-usable&#039; and more expensive. It is also more difficult to assess. No more &quot;you got 67% correct, now print out your certificate&quot;!

I&#039;d be interested to learn how successful people have been in bridging these two extremes and to what extent the first can be made be useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that, in terms of classroom learning, the &#8216;information dump&#8217; (love that phrase) approach has probably mostly been abandoned because teachers and trainers know it doesn&#8217;t work and if it rewards learners very little, it rewards teachers even less.  </p>
<p>Online, I there is a lot of pressure to provide cheap reusable training. This leads to a form of  mechanical interactivity from multiple choice quizzes, drag and drop etc which is simple to do and to grade. While these can be written to test students&#8217; ability to apply, evaluate and synthesize ideas rather than just regurgitate them, they tend to lead to fairly simplistic dead ends which might well not make sense to learners.</p>
<p>The other extreme is the online learning community, where reflexive learning is supported by co-learners or a tutor or probably from both. The learning in this situation is through discussion and participation if not collaboration. This requires skilled, committed facilitators, which will make the course less &#8216;re-usable&#8217; and more expensive. It is also more difficult to assess. No more &#8220;you got 67% correct, now print out your certificate&#8221;!</p>
<p>I&#8217;d be interested to learn how successful people have been in bridging these two extremes and to what extent the first can be made be useful.</p>
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		<title>By: Cathy Moore</title>
		<link>http://blog.cathy-moore.com/2008/07/can-your-learners-wing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-4888</link>
		<dc:creator>Cathy Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 15:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cathy-moore.com/?p=231#comment-4888</guid>
		<description>Melody, it&#039;s great that your learners feel free to give you feedback and make clear what they need. As you point out, interactive scenarios make them feel part of the process, and providing some way for them to debate aspects of the course involves them even more.

Karyn, I agree that one reason we use information dumps is so we can check items off our list and dodge responsibility: &quot;We told them not to push the red button. It&#039;s not our fault if they didn&#039;t listen.&quot; To some degree, it is our fault. If minor changes would make our materials more effective but we don&#039;t make those changes, then we can&#039;t really blame our learners for following our example and failing to change as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Melody, it&#8217;s great that your learners feel free to give you feedback and make clear what they need. As you point out, interactive scenarios make them feel part of the process, and providing some way for them to debate aspects of the course involves them even more.</p>
<p>Karyn, I agree that one reason we use information dumps is so we can check items off our list and dodge responsibility: &#8220;We told them not to push the red button. It&#8217;s not our fault if they didn&#8217;t listen.&#8221; To some degree, it is our fault. If minor changes would make our materials more effective but we don&#8217;t make those changes, then we can&#8217;t really blame our learners for following our example and failing to change as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Cathy Moore</title>
		<link>http://blog.cathy-moore.com/2008/07/can-your-learners-wing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-4887</link>
		<dc:creator>Cathy Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 15:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cathy-moore.com/?p=231#comment-4887</guid>
		<description>Sahana, thanks for the reference to Marvin Minsky&#039;s &quot;Negative Expertise.&quot; I liked this statement from him: &quot;We tend to think of decision-making as positive. Yet the act of decision, which we often describe as an &#039;act&#039; of free will, is more of a NegAct by nature, because what seems consciously to be the moment of &#039;making&#039; the decision is actually the moment of terminating the process of considering alternatives.&quot;

If we don&#039;t show learners at least some alternatives and let them see why they should be ruled out, our learners can&#039;t wing it in the real world, where the alternatives are infinite.

From Minsky&#039;s paper I ended up at another paper, where I got this quote: &quot;Conceiving competence as the ability to solve problems, Heid distinguishes between trivial and non-trivial competence. A case of trivial competence occurs when individuals succeed in solving a task without really knowing why. In contrast, non-trivial competence means to be able to repeatedly bring about success, because one knows about the reasons and conditions under which it is achieved.&quot;

If any blog readers want to see the original Minsky piece, here&#039;s the full text of &quot;Negative Expertise&quot;:
http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/NegExp.mss.txt

And here&#039;s a paper that considers how ideas like negative expertise can be applied to professional development:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/wv488100m9u44378/fulltext.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sahana, thanks for the reference to Marvin Minsky&#8217;s &#8220;Negative Expertise.&#8221; I liked this statement from him: &#8220;We tend to think of decision-making as positive. Yet the act of decision, which we often describe as an &#8216;act&#8217; of free will, is more of a NegAct by nature, because what seems consciously to be the moment of &#8216;making&#8217; the decision is actually the moment of terminating the process of considering alternatives.&#8221;</p>
<p>If we don&#8217;t show learners at least some alternatives and let them see why they should be ruled out, our learners can&#8217;t wing it in the real world, where the alternatives are infinite.</p>
<p>From Minsky&#8217;s paper I ended up at another paper, where I got this quote: &#8220;Conceiving competence as the ability to solve problems, Heid distinguishes between trivial and non-trivial competence. A case of trivial competence occurs when individuals succeed in solving a task without really knowing why. In contrast, non-trivial competence means to be able to repeatedly bring about success, because one knows about the reasons and conditions under which it is achieved.&#8221;</p>
<p>If any blog readers want to see the original Minsky piece, here&#8217;s the full text of &#8220;Negative Expertise&#8221;:<br />
<a href="http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/NegExp.mss.txt" rel="nofollow">http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/NegExp.mss.txt</a></p>
<p>And here&#8217;s a paper that considers how ideas like negative expertise can be applied to professional development:<br />
<a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/wv488100m9u44378/fulltext.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.springerlink.com/content/wv488100m9u44378/fulltext.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Karyn Romeis</title>
		<link>http://blog.cathy-moore.com/2008/07/can-your-learners-wing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-4886</link>
		<dc:creator>Karyn Romeis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 14:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cathy-moore.com/?p=231#comment-4886</guid>
		<description>&quot;But does simply “knowing” a rule change people’s behavior?&quot;

I think the fact that our jails are full to overflowing answers that question!

I share your frustration with the idea that dumping information on people is going to produce results. Then again, if the result we want is to be able to demonstrate that &quot;we did our bit - just look at look at all those neatly checked boxes&quot; then maybe we are achieving our goal!

Can&#039;t you just picture it... &quot;Well the problem can&#039;t be with the training - we&#039;ve given them all the information they need and we&#039;ve tested them on it. The problem must lie somewhere else. Maybe they&#039;re just lazy!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But does simply “knowing” a rule change people’s behavior?&#8221;</p>
<p>I think the fact that our jails are full to overflowing answers that question!</p>
<p>I share your frustration with the idea that dumping information on people is going to produce results. Then again, if the result we want is to be able to demonstrate that &#8220;we did our bit &#8211; just look at look at all those neatly checked boxes&#8221; then maybe we are achieving our goal!</p>
<p>Can&#8217;t you just picture it&#8230; &#8220;Well the problem can&#8217;t be with the training &#8211; we&#8217;ve given them all the information they need and we&#8217;ve tested them on it. The problem must lie somewhere else. Maybe they&#8217;re just lazy!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Melody McCollum</title>
		<link>http://blog.cathy-moore.com/2008/07/can-your-learners-wing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-4884</link>
		<dc:creator>Melody McCollum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 12:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cathy-moore.com/?p=231#comment-4884</guid>
		<description>I will tell you the one comment that comes back consistently from our learners is &quot;the information was great but we would like to have case studies or scenarios&quot;. Learners want to be able to relate what they are learning from their real life experiences or at least something similar. They also want to be part of the learning process. Don&#039;t talk at them but with them and let them be part of the learning process. As Sahana said &quot;give them choices to make themselves&quot;. If they question something throw the question back out to the participants and let them debate the answer and come to a consensus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will tell you the one comment that comes back consistently from our learners is &#8220;the information was great but we would like to have case studies or scenarios&#8221;. Learners want to be able to relate what they are learning from their real life experiences or at least something similar. They also want to be part of the learning process. Don&#8217;t talk at them but with them and let them be part of the learning process. As Sahana said &#8220;give them choices to make themselves&#8221;. If they question something throw the question back out to the participants and let them debate the answer and come to a consensus.</p>
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		<title>By: Sahana Chattopadhyay</title>
		<link>http://blog.cathy-moore.com/2008/07/can-your-learners-wing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-4805</link>
		<dc:creator>Sahana Chattopadhyay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 11:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cathy-moore.com/?p=231#comment-4805</guid>
		<description>Showing the negative fallout of doing something incorrectly or of not doing something is always more memorable. If you show a scenario where someone is in trouble for not follwoing some safety measures, the point will be driven home with greater force than if you were to show how some people followed safety measures and were thus &quot;safe.&quot; The latter makes for predictable scenarios and learners switch off. They are bored. Give them conflict; give them choices to make; and when they make those choices themselves, they will have made the learning their own. Application will automatically follow, 

The point I am trying to make is that the scenario presented by Cathy makes for effective learning because of the grey areas in it, Sometimes, &quot;showing&quot; learners what not to do works much better than just &quot;telling&quot; them what to do. This is &quot;Negative Knowledge&quot; as described by Marvin Minsky in his article &quot;Negative Expertise.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Showing the negative fallout of doing something incorrectly or of not doing something is always more memorable. If you show a scenario where someone is in trouble for not follwoing some safety measures, the point will be driven home with greater force than if you were to show how some people followed safety measures and were thus &#8220;safe.&#8221; The latter makes for predictable scenarios and learners switch off. They are bored. Give them conflict; give them choices to make; and when they make those choices themselves, they will have made the learning their own. Application will automatically follow, </p>
<p>The point I am trying to make is that the scenario presented by Cathy makes for effective learning because of the grey areas in it, Sometimes, &#8220;showing&#8221; learners what not to do works much better than just &#8220;telling&#8221; them what to do. This is &#8220;Negative Knowledge&#8221; as described by Marvin Minsky in his article &#8220;Negative Expertise.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Cathy Moore</title>
		<link>http://blog.cathy-moore.com/2008/07/can-your-learners-wing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-4769</link>
		<dc:creator>Cathy Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cathy-moore.com/?p=231#comment-4769</guid>
		<description>Thanks, everyone, for your comments. 

Laura, I (obviously!) agree that practicing in a safe place, and being free to make mistakes, is the best way to learn. The more wrong notes I hit, the closer I get to the right one--and the more I learn about the tradition I&#039;m trying to play. If someone just tells me what note to play, I&#039;ve learned almost nothing.

Since elearning is all about efficiency, we don&#039;t want to just throw learners into the deep end and watch them figure out how to swim--that takes too long. We can, however, give them a short, focused scenario to play with, along with guidance that quickly moves them to the right answer.

Robin, I think people fall back on &quot;tell, then test&quot; because it&#039;s familiar and easy. It&#039;s familiar because most of us went to schools that used that approach. And it&#039;s easy because thinking of a story takes a few minutes longer than just writing, &quot;Always do X.&quot; 

The cool thing is that the more you make yourself write stories, the easier they are to write. 

This approach could also make us talk on a different level with our SMEs. In addition to getting the information we need, we can ask them for case studies or real-life examples. This gives us a deeper insight into the content as well as giving us ideas for scenarios.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, everyone, for your comments. </p>
<p>Laura, I (obviously!) agree that practicing in a safe place, and being free to make mistakes, is the best way to learn. The more wrong notes I hit, the closer I get to the right one&#8211;and the more I learn about the tradition I&#8217;m trying to play. If someone just tells me what note to play, I&#8217;ve learned almost nothing.</p>
<p>Since elearning is all about efficiency, we don&#8217;t want to just throw learners into the deep end and watch them figure out how to swim&#8211;that takes too long. We can, however, give them a short, focused scenario to play with, along with guidance that quickly moves them to the right answer.</p>
<p>Robin, I think people fall back on &#8220;tell, then test&#8221; because it&#8217;s familiar and easy. It&#8217;s familiar because most of us went to schools that used that approach. And it&#8217;s easy because thinking of a story takes a few minutes longer than just writing, &#8220;Always do X.&#8221; </p>
<p>The cool thing is that the more you make yourself write stories, the easier they are to write. </p>
<p>This approach could also make us talk on a different level with our SMEs. In addition to getting the information we need, we can ask them for case studies or real-life examples. This gives us a deeper insight into the content as well as giving us ideas for scenarios.</p>
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